greg welch, senior partner, spencer stuart


Nadine:    00:00    Hello and welcome to CMO Moves! Today, I have Greg Welch, the Senior Partner of Spencer Stewart, with me.  Greg, hi.

Greg:    00:07    Hi there. Thanks for having me on the show.

Nadine:    00:09    Thank you for taking time out to join me.

Greg:    00:13    It's absolutely my pleasure. Look forward to chatting with you today.

Nadine:    00:32    Yes, and boy, we have a lot to talk about. If anybody knows CMOs, it's you. I mean, you have been working with CMOs from all kinds of companies, from all different types of industries, and helping them either grow into their CMO role or take on their next role, like a CEO. So tell me a little bit more about, you know, Spencer Stuart, and what you're doing, and how you're working with all these guys.

Greg:    00:45    Spencer Stuart, the world's largest global pure search firm, operates across fifty six offices around the world. We complete about five thousand searches a year and, as you would expect, there are a number of us in the company that are specialists in either functions, or geographies, or sectors. Over the last twenty years, I've spent my time working specifically in the marketing and commercial area, globally. And have had the good fortune, I think, of placing over 500 CMOs.

Nadine:    01:15    Wow. Wow. That's quite a number. And maybe a couple of them a few times, huh?

Greg:    01:21    Believe it or not, over time, when you do it for this long, there were times were good people move on to the next step, and you get to do it again. Which is always a pleasure.

Nadine:    01:30    Yeah, definitely. So when you're looking for CMOs to fill certain roles, help me understand, like, how you think about the landscape of CMOs, and then, how you go about finding the right one for the right thing?

Greg:    01:50    Lots, lots to that. So let me try to attack that. Every situation, as you well know, is entirely different. We spend a fair amount of time, with, whether it be the heads of HR, boards, or with CEOs of companies, to do what I would call it an environmental, which is to better understand what's keeping them up at night, what the competitive landscape looks like, how successful their marketing has been in the past, who they respect, and what kind of organization we're going to need for the future. That said, I'd love to tell you every search is entirely different. And of course, that's not the case. I boil it down in four or five buckets, today, of the traits that most CEOs want, that are going to appear in most of our job specifications. One, and it starts with leadership. The great thing about many of the guests you've had on your CMO Moves show, is these people are great leaders at their core.

Greg:    02:47    They just also happen to be gifted marketers. And today, to get things done, if you're not able to lead a team and channel, you know, charge the mountain, then you're not going to be successful. So starts with, “I need somebody to great leader,” we then, of course, not surprisingly, need functional expertise and, you know, well, the marketing function has arguably changed as much over the last 10 or fifteen years as any industry. So, it's keeping us busy. It's keeping us on our toes, and all companies are going to want sophisticated, proven, and, I use the word modern marketer, to be successful. The other piece that may surprise you a bit, that comes up as a really important mandate in almost all these briefs, is somebody that is a highly skilled influencer. This isn’t a land grab on, you know, which divisions report up directly through somebody so you can control it.

Greg:    03:42    The very best CMOs I know, when I think Seth Farbman and Linda Boff, you just get on your show and others, it's because people want to get things done for them and their team. And so, you need to build enduring relationships with your peers, with people outside of your span of control, and they too need to be able to believe in the power of your big idea and want to help you accomplish that goal. So this influencing muscle is difficult, it's easy to talk about, difficult to find, and something that's really important today. And you know, no surprise to you, all my clients are looking for people that are truly omni-channel. You don't know how to operate across screen, online and offline, you know, on an offline brick and mortar, and beyond that, that is an absolute mandate that somebody's contemporary and you know, as you would expect, as the age of CEOs and boards is increasing, we're looking for people that have their finger on the pulse of what millennials and others are thinking about. And we're seeing this new generation emerge, which I think is super exciting. And lastly, and although I can't tell you that, probably talk about all the great CMOs that it'd become CEOs. But one of the things that I'm seeing a nice swing of the pendulum, is CEOs are saying, listen, I need somebody that's also capable of doing more and so CMO as the GM of the future, becoming a CEO down the road. And there are, fortunately, are some examples. Mary Dillon, who's now at Ulta. You know, who's a marketer early on at PepsiCo and McDonald's, as you know, or Michelle Buck, who we placed at Hershey, became CEO. I mean there are, you know, there's a lot of reason, I think, rationale, that we could get why marketers are well situated to be a GM of the future and we're seeing that as a mandate as well.

Nadine:    05:27    Wow. Greg, you just touched on like 18 things that I'm passionate about, so, I don't even know where to start. But let's, let's start backwards, if you will. So when you talk about the path to CEO, in fact, I think I wrote an article once called CMO Path to CEO. I completely agree. And it's grounded in being able to be what you started with, which is leadership, and those are very different skills to build. Then, the functional skills, if you will, that's required of the job. What would you say are the best steps someone can take as they're trying to grow and exercise those leadership skills?

Greg:    06:10    You know, it'a a great question, and it's tricky. We help people, at times, develop what we call a career placemat. And it literally looks like a placemat where you might eat off of it. It's a very wide landscape document to talk about how do we look at an executive's career, what moves do they make across industry, within their own company, into other divisions, across functions. And we've been trying to develop a template for, “this is how you build a great career.” And, and I'm, you know, happy, unhappy, to say there's no silver bullet, what we do have those and ability to look at some fabulous careers and say, “How did he or she get there? And what did that career track look like?” And one of the, the areas that we often test executives for is what we would simply call agility, this ability to walk into a new situation, whether it's a new geography, a new industry, a new sector, and quickly learn.

Greg:    07:06    And one of the things, not surprising, that we find is that agile leaders are those that seem to progress more quickly. And when I look at somebody's career and I actually worry a lot, and work with people like you, in the market, you know, the ADA and others, to talk about, you know, we're worried about the pipeline of tomorrow's marketers. One of the fears I have is that there's so much micro specialization going on, that if somebody spends twelve years in digital marketing, I really worry about what that then thirty-two-year-old, as an example, does it make sense for that person to branch out and go spend time in finance or in supply chain or in human resources or other areas? And so it's really important that we get exposure across functions to people early on. And although we certainly all need specialists on our teams, if I really want to be a CEO, I don't want to be really good across a number of areas, and perhaps not a specialist in a given area.

Greg:    08:05    And that's one of these things that people need to trade off. You know, I often, you would expect, I spend a lot of time with, you know, some of the world's best CMOs to say, boy, what would you have done differently, you know, just trying to glean the nugget on how we can help, you know, the next person coming around the pipe, and there's somebody that runs a very large. He ran a very large automotive business as CMO and was promoted to run a $60B piece of that global business as a GM. And when I sat down with him later and said, “Did you feel prepared?” He said, “on most accounts I did,” he said, “but on the financial side, I didn't.” He said, “I now, all of a sudden, am being tasked with decisions around costing. Do I borrow money for capital expenditures? How do I double down and invest? How do I fund that?” And he said, “and I felt ill-prepared for that.” Now again, this is a dramatic, This was a $60B manufacturing company in automotive, so, incredibly complex, but there's something to be said about what would've happened had he taken a two year stint to go in finance early on? He believes would've put them in a better situation to handle that.

Nadine:    09:18    Well, you know, it's so interesting that you brought that up as an example because it reminds me of the conversation I had with Deborah Wahl, just yesterday. She's also coming up here, on the show, and she spent a lot of time in the automotive industry before she went to a McDonald's, and I think we going to call her podcast ‘From Hot Rods to Hamburgers’ or something like that. Right. But I, you know, I've seen and heard with Deborah that she has an exceptionally strong grasp on the financial side of things, and in fact, that's one of the areas that she really looked to flex and develop. And you and I have had plenty of discussions with this, and the board where we were putting together with the AMA playbook. What is the role of a CMO, and financial acument keeps coming up over, and over, and over again. So, to your point, is it just spending more time with their CFO, developing more programs where they can collaborate better together? Like Raja, from MasterCard, who works with the CFO, to create a marketing finance team, like, what are the best ways to do that?

Greg:    10:35    Well, most of level of acumen is different to begin with, Deborah’s a great example of somebody, you know, incredibly agile learner and a gifted marketer and proudly I helped her place her at McDonald's as the CMO. And when you think about that placement, which was a bit risky at the time, and we almost chuckled about it at the time, she was, at the time ,was at Pulte, but she was at Lexus and Toyota early on, principally automotive. And coming into Mcdonald's, no food experience, no restaurant experience. You know, ill qualified, you know, ill-prepared for that on a number of dimensions, yet she did a terrific job, played a critical role as that company was going through a major transformation. One of the things that we try to think about, and young people are probably better than my generation, was to sit down periodically and just do, let's do a, a checkup on my career.

Greg:    11:28    How am I moving along? What are my long term long term goals? How prepared am I going to be at that time to get to those roles? And in this next generation, I will tell you, they're quite selective about what they want to go do. I see people turn jobs down because they feel like it's maybe off task, and I applaud that. It's frustrating at times, but I applaud that people are being very thoughtful, how they take where they are today, where they want to go, and it's not a linear track. You know, I believe that opportunity knocks at times. You need to open the door, but those that seem to climb the ladder that are just, you know, the ones that do it best. When I look back at their career, they took all sorts of crazy assignments, you know, took a account lead assignment, or did field marketing, or worked in content, or pure social marketing for a period of time.

Greg:    12:20    And I think those people that can step into new situations when people,, you know, get the function down. I encourage that, and I think the idea of rotating through a couple of areas, particularly if you could get, you know, a couple of people in finance to flip-flop jobs with a couple of product marketing. I think that's great for an enterprise. And as a leader, I highly recommend it, because people on your teams will talk about the way you may need, or thinking about, “how do you reinvest in your people and support them?” And that's one easy way to do it, and the product is better.

Nadine:    12:56    Yeah. I couldn't agree more. And, you know, it's interesting you mentioned that people are being very, very thoughtful about their next moves within their careers, and I think the same it can be said for which boards to join. I mean, I know Deborah, it just went through a really long thoughtful process and selected two boards out of a large range of boards to join. And what would you say to folks about the importance of it being on a board and what they should think about as they're looking to be on a board?

Greg:    13:30    Well, the fact of the matter is there's about forty five current CMOs on Fortune 1000 boards. So although we've got a trend, and I couldn't be more supportive and at the center of this, the demand for it, from the board, there's themselves is not going to keep up with all the anticipation of all the CMOs that would love to be on boards. You know, a proudly, as I think back, just in the last year, I helped put Trish Mueller from Home Depot on the Dave and Buster's board, Linda Boff, I just put on a Dunkin’ Donuts board. Elizabeth Charles, I put on the At Home board, Jenny Storms, also on Dave and Buster's, and so there's some great women going on-- Kim Metcalf, put her on the OshKosh board. So we're seeing that as a fabulous next step for many great CMOs. The reality is it's very difficult to lay the public company board.

Greg:    14:25    You know, Mary Dillon will tell you, when she joined the Target board, it changed her career trajectory forever. Now, Mary Dillon has to happen to have incredible gifts in many areas, but that was a wonderful opportunity that she was given and she was a fabulous director and it's made her a better CEO. There is no doubt that if someone has the time, they know what they're getting into, they've got value to add, and they're willing to spend the time to really dive in, that being part of a board that's complimentary to their current work, will be a fabulous move for them. If they don't bring things home to their own team that they learned that add value to their company, they should do it but in most cases, most sitting CMOs that have the wonderful opportunity to be on a board, talk about it with just such admiration about, “boy, it's been a great experience. I've learned how to listen more. I've learned not to get into the weeds as a director, that I might as an operating executive.” And it's a wonderful discipline for those that have good fortune to be considered for boards.

Nadine:    15:27    Yeah, it's amazing that you mentioned Linda, because I was on the phone with her yesterday, and she mentioned that being part of the Dunkin’ board has been transformational for her. So she's really appreciated that experience. To your point, it is a lot of work. I mean, I remember having any conversation with Cammie Dunaway, who is on several boards now, and she said you really have to be mindful that it is a responsibility, and you're there, to not just show up and have at a meeting, but you're there to do homework. You're there to really think about their business model. You're there to really shape the future of that company. It's a tremendous amount of responsibility. The other thing she mentioned is it's very different to be on a public board versus a non-profit board. How would you compare the two?

Greg:    16:19    Most people that call me, and I get about fifty calls a month of people saying, “Greg, I'd love to be on a board,” where I typically tell them to start is at their church, their school, a local marketing organization, because that's where you're going to start. And when we begin to vet very senior level CMOs, and there certainly is a demand for some of them to join the board, we want to know, how effective is this person? What do they understand about governance? What will those around them say about the value that they've added, and this is where I encourage people to say, go get involved with the Association of National Advertisers. Join the board of the Ad Council. They don't pay well, meaning they paid zero, and you're going to put some blood, sweat, and tears, and you may even write a personal check, but it is time and money well spent. And if you're serious about being on a board, you better think about, how can you go begin to consider to do it on a non-profit and or a smaller organization.

Nadine:    17:17    And the stat that you mentioned too, earlier, I brought up because I was trying to remember what it was, I think three years ago, you guys did a study at Spencer Stuart, and the number then was forty, of the 9,000 Fortune 1000 board seats, were sitting CMOs, if I remember that correctly, and now it's forty five. So, that's not a lot of growth in three years. But do you think that number, like you said, there's limited seats, but is that going to get bigger and is it due to the fact that we need more of the voice of the customer in the room?

Greg:    17:49    Well, the good news is my personal board business and my colleagues at Spencer Stewart that do CMO work were really busy on the board front. So there certainly is a trend, and I am quite confident that that trend is going to continue. It started, probably ten years ago, where aging boards that had diversity problems said, “boy, we need to get our act together,” and we believe that diverse boards yield better results, which, of course, is true, and they began to look at functions, and now, as we've seen the rapid evolution of the marketing function, modern and other, you know, when you look at the average age, which is 63, of an average board member today in the US Fortune 1000, we need a younger perspective. And the good news is that marketing seems to be a function that people are saying, “boy, I would love to have somebody that could help us better manage what digital is all about,”

Greg:    18:41    as an example. You know, it's interesting, one of the bits of council that are often offered to CMOs is to say, “how connected are you to your current board?” I'm the CMO of an organization. I bet that most boards would be keenly interested in a, you know, call it digital 201 class to talk about how SEO, SEM works, what's going on with fraud, and privacy, and transparency, and some of the key issues that are going on from a technological standpoint, programmatic buying, some of the things that are going on. I suspect most directors really don't have a great handle on those topics, and the CMO is in such a wonderful position to say, Nadine, with you, you as a director, might you be interested in, in learning a little bit about some of the latest technology that's going on in marketing that may make you a better director? I think the answer is absolutely yes.

Nadine:    19:34    That's a great point, and wouldn't it be great if everybody volunteered to provide that information. Like you said. I mean, I think, you know, there's all kinds of industry collaboration going on right now, whether it's within the board, or across the c-suite or even just leveraging the partner ecosystem, and bringing new thinking into the companies to continue to fuel innovation and growth. And we talk about growth all the time, as a key driver, you know, being a Growth CMO, what do you, how would you define that, versus, maybe, what wasn't defined as being a Growth CMO before?

Greg:    20:16    It used to be depending on the, you know, if you've talked to B to B versus B to C, it used to be that, you know, there was a sales and marketing department. Marketing was largely responsible for the pretty pamphlets that were propaganda that the sales people could use to then go sell more product. I think in the last four or five years we've seen what I think is a positive emergence and evolution of the marketing function. And we're seeing many companies now calling them Chief Growth Officers, Marybeth West, who we just help into Hershey as the Chief Growth Officer. Marketing is one the areas she has responsibility for. And today's great CMOs, and what I would call CMO Pluses, those that have broader than just marketing function responsibility, are ones that are truly tethered to driving growth in the company.

Greg:    21:00    You know, if you were to sit with most CEOs and say, what's keeping you up at night, what do you most want from your team? It's like, I need growth. I've got to show the street that were growing, and you know, marketers can no longer point to the sales organization, you know, this is something together. And I love what Linda and others of the great CMOs are doing. Saying, “hey, we own this.” You know, I recall when Beth Comstock was in the job at GE that Linda Boff now holds, she was charged with something like that, two or three billion dollars a year of growth as her team's targets. They needed to develop new revenue based on new services, new products. And I love the fact that Beth was one that said, “hey, we're going to own this.” She was an early adopter of that, which is why she was so amazing.

Nadine:    21:45    Wow, that's a great story on Beth is she's doing a lot of fun things these days too. So I followed her quite a bit on social. Um, so you used the phrase, what keeps them up at night? I want to know what keeps you up at night.

Greg:    22:05    Well, besides four kids-- in my world, I am, I am so blessed I have been in the search business now twenty years, and I am so blessed to have this wonderful opportunity to work with great clients. And as you well know, over the course of my time in this business, I had built personal, deep, enduring relationships with people that I care deeply about. I spent a lot of time with CMOs, whether I will ever place them, or do work for them or not. And it's because, I, you know, at the end of the day, it's about the human genome. And when I think about what we do, and when I think about these people that I care a great deal about, and I see many of them struggling. You know, when you look at CMO tenure, you see our, our study every year and it goes up and down, the fact of the matter is there are going to be some fabulous people, some brilliant executives, some gifted marketers, that are taken out of their jobs this year.

Greg:    23:06    That's that certainly the dark side of what we do. I'm not happy about that and CMO tenure I'm going on the increases. That sounds selfish, that I would be thrilled with it. I'm not, I don't need that. There's a lot of change going on in the world, and sadly, there's incredible pressure on many of the people that will be guests on your show and others. And that gives me indigestion. I see great people that are struggling. The pressure is intense. The, you know, the choppy waters that we as an industry or are facing are unprecedented. You know, part of, and you’re at the center of this, but you will recall Jeff Jones, who was one of the greatest staffer who's now the CEO of H&R Block, when he was the CFO at target, he called me one day, said, “Greg, I'm really worried about the future of our, our industry or function.”

Greg:    23:58    And I said, tell me more. And he said, I just, he said, “I've got talented thirty-year-olds on our team that are telling me they don't want my job, and they're comfortable being with us now until their bored.” And he said, “I'm worried that we can't build long term succession plans and career tracks with people that, we don't know if they'll be around.” And Jeff is wise beyond his years. And he stumbled across something that you and many others said, “hey, this is a problem.” We need to tackle this, and we need to figure out, how do we get more talented young people to come into the function? I love what I do, but I will tell you that there, there are, we've got some headwinds, and I think, as an industry, we're realizing that we need to do this together. You'll remember the old proverb, there's one that says “if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together,” and I'm delighted to see the work of the ANA and other groups are doing, to say, “hey, listen, let's band together some of the very brightest minds,” you know, much of the work that you did with the CMO ANA Talent Playbook to say, “how do we begin to share ideas, share wisdom and work together?”

Greg:    25:06    And I think we're going to go on further over time, which I'm happy to see. But in the meantime, there are going to be some sleepless nights. I mean, you can imagine when we're dealing at a very high-stakes with high-pressure situations where we've got to get the right executives, and not all of what we do is happy. You know, there's a lot of scrutiny, and there's some broken hearts that happen at times when we're making tough decisions on people. But that's what we do. I just, I happen to love what I do, and I'm incredibly passionate about it, as you know.

Nadine:    25:34    Yeah, absolutely. I totally understand what you're saying. And I see your passion, you know, when we wrote that article together to launch the Playbook, we launched that article on Linkedin, and I encourage anybody who hasn't read it to take a look at it. It was wildly popular, not because of us, but because we tried to lay out all these things that we're seeing and hearing from these wonderful leaders that we'd respect. Because that's what it's all about, is us working together to create change, and to support each other, and to lift each other up. And there's too much animosity out there, and I'm glad to see the really great leaders are those that know how to collaborate with each other.

Greg:    26:36    I'm really proud of it. It's not my place to be proud of the industry, but I don't think I've ever seen a time, and I don't think this is showboating on anybody's part, but I don't recall, ever, the entire industry holding hands and saying, “hey, listen, we've got some issues. Let's tackle this together. Let's get stuff done.” And we need to share ideas. And to see people sharing in front of what could be perceived to be some of their competitors is pretty remarkable. So, I'm, honestly, I'm proud proud of the group, and I know we're making progress and I hope that that's the legacy that many of us can leave in the industry.

Nadine:    27:12    No, absolutely. And the other thing for folks to take a look at is that video that you shared and it, I think you can just Google it. It's called, I'm a CMO What Do You Want From Me? But that was a really well done video that you shared for The Post, and it's just fascinating just watching this video and all the different expectations. No doubt that the CMO role is, has got to be the most complicated of all roles in the c-suite. Would you say that's true?

Greg:    27:43    It sounds self-serving, but I think, I think it is. When you think about accounting principles that haven't fundamentally changed in fifty years. No doubt, our friends in the CIO chair would say, “hey, wait a minute,” or in the supply change chair would say, “wait a minute, we're going through lots of change.” I’ll give them credit, but I will tell you, and you know, and you're in the middle of this, the marketing function, the technology touching of consumers, our ability to reach out and measure, is unlike anything we've ever seen. I, on one hand say, “hey, a minute, this is a wonderful platform from which to lead,” and great CMOs need to say, “don't be daunted by this, but rather, how can you take advantage of this wonderful opportunity to talk to target consumers, to deliver the right message, to be thoughtful about the way you do it, to do it and authentic way.” The stakes are very high, when we now have consumers weighing in on the conversation, but, but you know, the competitive people that are up for it are, you know, there are many that are doing it well and I'm optimistic as we go forward that we're in a good spot.

Nadine:    28:48    Ah, great. So I, unfortunately, could talk to you all day long, but we're going to be running out of time soon. So I have two more questions for you. And they're, they're big tough ones. So are you ready for them?

New Speaker:    29:01    Bring it on.

New Speaker:    29:03    Okay, so let's talk about women. I know that you guys just placed your thousandth woman on a board. Was it just last this year or last year? Last year. And we know, I'm not going to make this into a very strong conversation here, but we know that there are a lot of challenges, especially for women leaders. Are there any nuggets or pieces of advice you would give to aspiring women CMOs, or other or women who already are CMOs to help them advance in their careers at an even more sturdy and strong pace?

Greg:    29:44    Well, the good news is, and I'm fortunate in this regard, is that the marketing talent pool has always had a great balance of female talent in it. No surprise, we're seeing emergence of, I can go on, I think I placed you know, twenty, in the last, you know, year or two of, you know, high profile companies that, that pick the best person. They just happened to pick a super talented woman. Uh, and we're committed to bringing diverse slates because we believe diverse teams yield better results. And there are some, just some incredible women out there that are doing great things. I think now, you know, I think that the world is finally gotten it. And, you know, the, the, the number of situations where I have, where a CEO says, “boy, I really need to improve the diversity of my team and I would be thrilled if I could find a female marketer,”

Greg:    30:38    you know, it's not me having to spur that conversation. I proudly will tell you it's our clients, because they know it's the right thing to do. The great news for us. And I'm fortunate in that there is a great pool from which to draw, you know, in consumer world, you know, whether it be restaurants, or hospitality, or financial services. You know, the fact of the matter is there's some incredibly talented women out there. And I will tell you that, in many regards, I think women are doing a far better job today than men, historically, at done on, you know, how do you nurture a mentor, this next generation? And the number of kind of earlier career, thirty-year-old-women that I meet, and when I sit down and talk with them about where do they get their inspiration, who do they look up to?

Greg:    31:23    What does their personal board of directors look like? You know, to a person, you know, they have a list of four or five key women in their lives that are going to check in, people that help them, that look out for them, that offer wisdom, because they care, they share advice and I don't see the, you know, competitive juices flowing, but rather, you know, these mature, incredible women that are saying, I want to help that next generation. And I'm really bullish on what we're going to look like, I don't think we're exactly where we want to be, when you look at the Fortune 100 CMOs, on a mix, at this point, but, but I'm confident it's going to continue to get better and better. And each year we're seeing more and more stepping into the top job.

Nadine:    32:07    I'm like, yeah, I, I feel and see the same thing, and I hope it remains oncourse.  So with that, my last question for you, if you weren't doing what you're doing today, let's Spencer Stuart, what would you be doing?

Greg:    32:24    Wow, I've often thought that upon retirement I'm going to do two things, one, be a barista, and two, write jingles. I don't really have a musical bone in my body, but but my mind does work, and I'm easily bored. I'm sure if I were younger, I would've been diagnosed with ADD of sorts, early on. It's why search is a great fit for me because I get to deal with, you know, multitasking, working for a handful of clients at a time, and juggling lots of great candidates. You know, creativity is what spurs my world. I love being with people, so fortunately, I'm in a good spot, and maybe maybe I'll serve you a tall mocha someday

Nadine:    33:10    And sing me a jingle while you do it, right? [Exactly.] All right, well that's great. Well, listen, anytime you want to share your jingles, send them my way. I'll put them on the air. I would love to hear a few. Thank you so, so much for sharing. So much. Great advice for everyone. I really appreciate you and your time today.

Greg:    33:26    Hey, it's my, it's my pleasure. I love that you're putting a this important topic out there for people, and I hope they take advantage of it, and I look forward to working closely with you in the coming years. Thanks. Nadine.